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	<title>Comments on: We Won&#8217;t Get Fooled Again</title>
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	<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/</link>
	<description>any technology distinguishable from magic is not sufficiently advanced</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 01:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: robhyndman.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Obama: Hope, Redemption, Salvation and Faith</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80040</link>
		<dc:creator>robhyndman.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Obama: Hope, Redemption, Salvation and Faith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80040</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;a surprising degree of emptiness&#8221;. Something of an overstatement, but still generally on the mark. But nonetheless it&#8217;s extraordinary to see a media phenom turn into a mythic figure before [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;a surprising degree of emptiness&#8221;. Something of an overstatement, but still generally on the mark. But nonetheless it&#8217;s extraordinary to see a media phenom turn into a mythic figure before [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Hyndman</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80038</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Hyndman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80038</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link - noticed yesterday that you were checking out Lessig - can't remember how, now - MyBlogLog?  In any event, I love watching Lessig talk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link - noticed yesterday that you were checking out Lessig - can&#8217;t remember how, now - MyBlogLog?  In any event, I love watching Lessig talk.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Hyndman</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80037</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Hyndman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80037</guid>
		<description>Rob:

Great post. Well articulated. But I disagree. I believe this is an opportunity that can only be seized with no small amount of faith. And I believe that the only way to overcome our cynicism is to take a chance on that faith. I believe that the upside in our investment of faith in Obama far outweighs the downside of what we may lose by not taking the chance.

If we go with Hillary, something good *will* happen: we will replace Bush with a smart, competent, woman, liberal who will help us move past the last 8 years. But if we go with Obama, something *great* may happen.

And finally, for a MUCH more articulate and reasoned endorsement of Obama, look to Larry Lessig's just published video: http://lessig.org/blog/2008/02/20_minutes_or_so_on_why_i_am_4.html

DAVE</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob:</p>
<p>Great post. Well articulated. But I disagree. I believe this is an opportunity that can only be seized with no small amount of faith. And I believe that the only way to overcome our cynicism is to take a chance on that faith. I believe that the upside in our investment of faith in Obama far outweighs the downside of what we may lose by not taking the chance.</p>
<p>If we go with Hillary, something good *will* happen: we will replace Bush with a smart, competent, woman, liberal who will help us move past the last 8 years. But if we go with Obama, something *great* may happen.</p>
<p>And finally, for a MUCH more articulate and reasoned endorsement of Obama, look to Larry Lessig&#8217;s just published video: <a href="http://lessig.org/blog/2008/02/20_minutes_or_so_on_why_i_am_4.html" onClick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/lessig.org');">http://lessig.org/blog/2008/02/20_minutes_or_so_on_why_i_am_4.html</a></p>
<p>DAVE</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Hyndman</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80035</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Hyndman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80035</guid>
		<description>Dawn,

I don't think it should matter, when it comes to expressing an opinion about whether he's the right person for that job, that I'm not a citizen.  It's an opinion.  You can always not read it, if you wish.  I won't be offended in the least.  By the way, pleased to meet you - we're the country north of you, and we're &lt;em&gt;profoundly&lt;/em&gt; affected by what your leaders do.  And it's worth mentioning that our soldiers are fighting and dying in Afghanistan because your President left the job unfinished so that he could move troops to Iraq.  It's not just OK for us to have an opinion about your leaders (and candidates), it's &lt;em&gt;necessary&lt;/em&gt;.

As far as whether the opinion is informed or not, the average well-informed Canadian understands US politics better than the average ill-informed American.  That's not surprising.  You can discount the opinion or not accordingly.

None of what I said suggests that Americans are any different than anyone else - worse or better - when it comes to picking their democratically elected leaders.  Because they aren't.

"Your article gave the impression ...".  It's an opinion.  My blog tells you who I am.  I don't need anyone's permission to express it. No offense intended, but it's not "fine, to a certain extent" - it's just fine.  Or so your constitution (and ours) says.

I'm not demonizing Senator Obama.  I'm writing about him, as I have many times, often in very complimentary terms, which is of course irrelevant.  I said nothing about the man, except that he was untested and largely unknown, which is simply a fact.  With all due respect, if you think that's "demonizing" him, buckle up, because the Republicans are coming, and they will have more to say.  Almost none of it will be pleasant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dawn,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it should matter, when it comes to expressing an opinion about whether he&#8217;s the right person for that job, that I&#8217;m not a citizen.  It&#8217;s an opinion.  You can always not read it, if you wish.  I won&#8217;t be offended in the least.  By the way, pleased to meet you - we&#8217;re the country north of you, and we&#8217;re <em>profoundly</em> affected by what your leaders do.  And it&#8217;s worth mentioning that our soldiers are fighting and dying in Afghanistan because your President left the job unfinished so that he could move troops to Iraq.  It&#8217;s not just OK for us to have an opinion about your leaders (and candidates), it&#8217;s <em>necessary</em>.</p>
<p>As far as whether the opinion is informed or not, the average well-informed Canadian understands US politics better than the average ill-informed American.  That&#8217;s not surprising.  You can discount the opinion or not accordingly.</p>
<p>None of what I said suggests that Americans are any different than anyone else - worse or better - when it comes to picking their democratically elected leaders.  Because they aren&#8217;t.</p>
<p>&#8220;Your article gave the impression &#8230;&#8221;.  It&#8217;s an opinion.  My blog tells you who I am.  I don&#8217;t need anyone&#8217;s permission to express it. No offense intended, but it&#8217;s not &#8220;fine, to a certain extent&#8221; - it&#8217;s just fine.  Or so your constitution (and ours) says.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not demonizing Senator Obama.  I&#8217;m writing about him, as I have many times, often in very complimentary terms, which is of course irrelevant.  I said nothing about the man, except that he was untested and largely unknown, which is simply a fact.  With all due respect, if you think that&#8217;s &#8220;demonizing&#8221; him, buckle up, because the Republicans are coming, and they will have more to say.  Almost none of it will be pleasant.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Hyndman</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80034</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Hyndman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:34:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80034</guid>
		<description>Agreed, Mark.  And it would be nice to have to make these choices about our own candidates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, Mark.  And it would be nice to have to make these choices about our own candidates.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Hyndman</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80033</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Hyndman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80033</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Jay.  And I agree with you re HRC - there's is definitely something missing there.  At the end of the day, I'm honestly not sure how important that is - maybe likeability shouldn't matter.  But we're choosing people to deal on our behalf with other people, so we naturally expect them to have interpersonal skills we admire.  I suppose it depends.  Churchill was apparently an arrogant SOB.  But he brought home the bacon when it mattered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jay.  And I agree with you re HRC - there&#8217;s is definitely something missing there.  At the end of the day, I&#8217;m honestly not sure how important that is - maybe likeability shouldn&#8217;t matter.  But we&#8217;re choosing people to deal on our behalf with other people, so we naturally expect them to have interpersonal skills we admire.  I suppose it depends.  Churchill was apparently an arrogant SOB.  But he brought home the bacon when it mattered.</p>
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		<title>By: Dawn Chavez</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80032</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawn Chavez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80032</guid>
		<description>Rob-
I believe you make some valid points.  I feel that the US has indeed fallen prey to big corporations and their unique vision of what the world is.  I agree that people are under educated and most do not believe that we have to maintain constant vigilance against any sweet talking politician who wants nothing more than the power of the office.  The old adage is true – power absolutely corrupts.

Having said that, however, I have a real problem with what in the end turned into an anti-Obama rant.  What makes Barack Obama more of an issue than Senators Hillary Clinton or John McCain?  Each of them tells us what they want us to hear.  I have come to expect that from any politician.  As an American, there are several things that I worry about with each of them.  John McCain is just the old guard dressed in new clothing.  What about the completely distasteful idea of dynasty that seems, at least on it’s surface, to spell the beginning of the end for a free society?  In my lifetime, there has been exactly one administration that didn’t have a Bush or a Clinton on the ticket – and I was far too young to remember anything about Jimmy Carter.  These are all things that we have to be mindful of when selecting our leaders.

Do politicians lie to obtain office – most assuredly.  I expect it, as do most people I know.  We will never be able to have someone in office who didn’t lie through his teeth to get there, of this I am convinced.  Something in the nature of the beast precludes it.  One of my favorite quotes about the matter comes from Mark Twain – I will paraphrase – No one capable of getting elected to the office of president should ever be given the job.  I find politicians distasteful, but necessary, and I am willing to throw my hat in with the one who seems to me the most capable of steering this great nation toward a bright future.  Having said that, I was never fooled by the likes of George W Bush, I spent hours knocking on doors and calling voters to keep that man out of office only to see that hope hang by a chad in Florida.  I watched Bill Clinton before him with a certain amount of bemusement, because I couldn’t figure out the people who didn’t see the womanizer in his slick politician’s smile.  I voted for him all the same, because his plans more closely fit with my ideals.  Sometimes we are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils.

So I read your blog, and I was confused and confounded regarding why Senator Obama was in effect demonized for being the more romantic of the choices for office.  He is, as you pointed out, a brilliant speaker, and as I watched his speech at the 2004 convention, I felt moved.  I haven’t felt that in a while, especially from a politician.  I come from a generation jaded by political scandal, who has spent her adult life watching political opponents spend more time trying to bring down one another than actually doing anything for the country.  Part of me thinks that a slightly rosier view of our politicians might not be such a bad thing after all.

Then I realized that you were Canadian.

Please forgive me a moment of American indignation.  I certainly have been accused in the past of having a slightly Amerocentric view of the world, especially from my Canadian friends.  I have been repeatedly told that we here in the US tend to focus too much on our own issues and seem to think that everyone else in the world should be concerned with our politics when the truth is that not everyone cares about the US’s views.   I suppose on one hand, the title of your article is accurate – you won’t be fooled again because presumably you weren’t fooled the first time.  Unless, of course, you watched with glee as the second Bush took over the nation and thought, “Gee this sure will be good for Canada”.  Or, there is always the possibility that you run across the border to vote on the first Tuesday in November every four years for president.  Or perhaps you are an American expatriate living abroad who is watching this latest election with a bit of trepidation, unsure of whether to come home – though I didn’t see where you eluded to that possibility anyplace on your site.

This leads me to the conclusion that you are simply put, a Canadian citizen, interested in the election in the US in a neighborly way.  Which is fine, to a certain extent, I do believe in freedom of speech after all.  However, your article gave the impression that you were a fellow American concerned with the election of how our country is shaping up.  

Well, sir, I am an American, and though we are often thought of as brash or uneducated, we are thoroughly proud.  We have a foreign policy right now that needs fixing, but I will tell you this: most of the issues we are concerned with have to do with our unemployment rate, our border security, our involvement in an ill-though-out campaign in the middle east, our lack of a health care system, and the overall health of our nation.  I understand wanting to know what happens with a neighbor nation, I watch with interest what goes on politically in both Canada and Mexico, but I have never passed myself off as a concerned Canadian or Mexican citizen when speaking of or writing about the happenings in a neighbor country.   I found it irresponsible and questionable at the very least.  

You may be uncomfortable with the idea of Senator Barack Obama taking office here in the USA, but as a Canadian, you don’t have a say in that.  I do, as do my compatriots.  We here in the US have the chance and the right to vote.  I may want a little romance in my candidate and back in my president.  I want my leaders to have passion and be self possessed and to be able to formulate a coherent thought.  I want to cast my vote for the man or woman who best fits my own passions about my own country.  That is the power of citizenship and that is how we as Americans maintain our vigilance.  We have to hold our leaders accountable and watch their every move.  We have been far too lax about that with the current administration, I will admit, but as an American, that is my responsibility, my duty and my right.  I will go out tomorrow and caucus for the best candidate in my opinion and take part in the great system that was put in place by the forefathers of this nation, and come this November, I will once again wait out in the cold for my right to help choose my leader.  I hope that as you watch the returns, you realize that for better or for worse, we make our choices in this nation based on the freedom to do so as Americans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob-<br />
I believe you make some valid points.  I feel that the US has indeed fallen prey to big corporations and their unique vision of what the world is.  I agree that people are under educated and most do not believe that we have to maintain constant vigilance against any sweet talking politician who wants nothing more than the power of the office.  The old adage is true – power absolutely corrupts.</p>
<p>Having said that, however, I have a real problem with what in the end turned into an anti-Obama rant.  What makes Barack Obama more of an issue than Senators Hillary Clinton or John McCain?  Each of them tells us what they want us to hear.  I have come to expect that from any politician.  As an American, there are several things that I worry about with each of them.  John McCain is just the old guard dressed in new clothing.  What about the completely distasteful idea of dynasty that seems, at least on it’s surface, to spell the beginning of the end for a free society?  In my lifetime, there has been exactly one administration that didn’t have a Bush or a Clinton on the ticket – and I was far too young to remember anything about Jimmy Carter.  These are all things that we have to be mindful of when selecting our leaders.</p>
<p>Do politicians lie to obtain office – most assuredly.  I expect it, as do most people I know.  We will never be able to have someone in office who didn’t lie through his teeth to get there, of this I am convinced.  Something in the nature of the beast precludes it.  One of my favorite quotes about the matter comes from Mark Twain – I will paraphrase – No one capable of getting elected to the office of president should ever be given the job.  I find politicians distasteful, but necessary, and I am willing to throw my hat in with the one who seems to me the most capable of steering this great nation toward a bright future.  Having said that, I was never fooled by the likes of George W Bush, I spent hours knocking on doors and calling voters to keep that man out of office only to see that hope hang by a chad in Florida.  I watched Bill Clinton before him with a certain amount of bemusement, because I couldn’t figure out the people who didn’t see the womanizer in his slick politician’s smile.  I voted for him all the same, because his plans more closely fit with my ideals.  Sometimes we are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils.</p>
<p>So I read your blog, and I was confused and confounded regarding why Senator Obama was in effect demonized for being the more romantic of the choices for office.  He is, as you pointed out, a brilliant speaker, and as I watched his speech at the 2004 convention, I felt moved.  I haven’t felt that in a while, especially from a politician.  I come from a generation jaded by political scandal, who has spent her adult life watching political opponents spend more time trying to bring down one another than actually doing anything for the country.  Part of me thinks that a slightly rosier view of our politicians might not be such a bad thing after all.</p>
<p>Then I realized that you were Canadian.</p>
<p>Please forgive me a moment of American indignation.  I certainly have been accused in the past of having a slightly Amerocentric view of the world, especially from my Canadian friends.  I have been repeatedly told that we here in the US tend to focus too much on our own issues and seem to think that everyone else in the world should be concerned with our politics when the truth is that not everyone cares about the US’s views.   I suppose on one hand, the title of your article is accurate – you won’t be fooled again because presumably you weren’t fooled the first time.  Unless, of course, you watched with glee as the second Bush took over the nation and thought, “Gee this sure will be good for Canada”.  Or, there is always the possibility that you run across the border to vote on the first Tuesday in November every four years for president.  Or perhaps you are an American expatriate living abroad who is watching this latest election with a bit of trepidation, unsure of whether to come home – though I didn’t see where you eluded to that possibility anyplace on your site.</p>
<p>This leads me to the conclusion that you are simply put, a Canadian citizen, interested in the election in the US in a neighborly way.  Which is fine, to a certain extent, I do believe in freedom of speech after all.  However, your article gave the impression that you were a fellow American concerned with the election of how our country is shaping up.  </p>
<p>Well, sir, I am an American, and though we are often thought of as brash or uneducated, we are thoroughly proud.  We have a foreign policy right now that needs fixing, but I will tell you this: most of the issues we are concerned with have to do with our unemployment rate, our border security, our involvement in an ill-though-out campaign in the middle east, our lack of a health care system, and the overall health of our nation.  I understand wanting to know what happens with a neighbor nation, I watch with interest what goes on politically in both Canada and Mexico, but I have never passed myself off as a concerned Canadian or Mexican citizen when speaking of or writing about the happenings in a neighbor country.   I found it irresponsible and questionable at the very least.  </p>
<p>You may be uncomfortable with the idea of Senator Barack Obama taking office here in the USA, but as a Canadian, you don’t have a say in that.  I do, as do my compatriots.  We here in the US have the chance and the right to vote.  I may want a little romance in my candidate and back in my president.  I want my leaders to have passion and be self possessed and to be able to formulate a coherent thought.  I want to cast my vote for the man or woman who best fits my own passions about my own country.  That is the power of citizenship and that is how we as Americans maintain our vigilance.  We have to hold our leaders accountable and watch their every move.  We have been far too lax about that with the current administration, I will admit, but as an American, that is my responsibility, my duty and my right.  I will go out tomorrow and caucus for the best candidate in my opinion and take part in the great system that was put in place by the forefathers of this nation, and come this November, I will once again wait out in the cold for my right to help choose my leader.  I hope that as you watch the returns, you realize that for better or for worse, we make our choices in this nation based on the freedom to do so as Americans.</p>
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		<title>By: contentious.com - The Perils of Political Romance</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80031</link>
		<dc:creator>contentious.com - The Perils of Political Romance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80031</guid>
		<description>[...] actually Canadian blogger Rob Hyndman figured it out for me in his post this morning: We Won&#8217;t Get Fooled Again. He wrote:  &#8220;&#8230;I don&#8217;t want a political romance, and I&#8217;m not hungry for a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] actually Canadian blogger Rob Hyndman figured it out for me in his post this morning: We Won&#8217;t Get Fooled Again. He wrote:  &#8220;&#8230;I don&#8217;t want a political romance, and I&#8217;m not hungry for a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Evans</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80030</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80030</guid>
		<description>Wow. You just became my favorite Canadian political blogger. The sad part is you're not alone in how we view politicians. The problem comes when we just accept it rather than demand something/someone different/better/more honest.

Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. You just became my favorite Canadian political blogger. The sad part is you&#8217;re not alone in how we view politicians. The problem comes when we just accept it rather than demand something/someone different/better/more honest.</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: contentious.com - links for 2008-02-04</title>
		<link>http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80029</link>
		<dc:creator>contentious.com - links for 2008-02-04</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robhyndman.com/2008/02/04/we-wont-get-fooled-again/#comment-80029</guid>
		<description>[...] robhyndman.com » Blog Archive » We Won’t Get Fooled Again THIS is why I feel so electorally disengaged! &#8220;I don’t want a political romance. I want someone with a proven passion and ability to fix a broken system. Until I see that in a candidate, I’m more wary than credulous, and I’m suspending my belief.&#8221; (tags: human+nature politics emotions psychology leadership critical+thinking) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] robhyndman.com » Blog Archive » We Won’t Get Fooled Again THIS is why I feel so electorally disengaged! &#8220;I don’t want a political romance. I want someone with a proven passion and ability to fix a broken system. Until I see that in a candidate, I’m more wary than credulous, and I’m suspending my belief.&#8221; (tags: human+nature politics emotions psychology leadership critical+thinking) [...]</p>
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